Recently, Cobo co-founder Shen Yu and Jiling Technology founder Jin Ming engaged in a deep conversation about AI, entrepreneurship, investment, Bitcoin, Web 3, Agent, and life mission.

Shen Yu is an early participant in the crypto industry, having been involved in the cryptocurrency field since 2011, and is one of the earliest Bitcoin evangelists and participants in China; Jin Ming is a former member of the Chinese free diving national team, founder of Jiling Technology, and has long been focused on the research and commercial application of video AI technology, having received investments from institutions such as Alibaba, Yunfeng Fund, and Megvii Technology.

From the sense of mission of entrepreneurs to the relationship between humans and technology in the AI era; from free diving and death anxiety to investment frameworks and asset allocation; and then to BTC, RWA, Agent, and the future of Ethereum, the two delved into discussions surrounding technology, capital, and individual life experiences.

Shen Yu believes that one of the most significant changes brought about by AI is a substantial reduction in the cost from idea to implementation. In the past, an idea might have remained only in the mind due to high execution costs; today, AI is compressing and structuring a vast amount of human knowledge and handing over execution capability to individuals at an extremely low cost. As a result of technological development, human will has become more important. However, he also admitted that while AI has opened up many possibilities, it has not yet found something large enough and systematic. He still defines himself as a Builder, believing that "being alive is to some extent about making the possibilities in the world a little broader just by your existence."

This Builder mentality also runs through his investment philosophy. Shen Yu believes that good assets do not need to rely on a continuous narrative; rather than broad diversification, he prefers to focus on a few assets that are truly understood because human energy is limited, and what truly matters is understanding the underlying logic of the assets.

In the next stage of Web 3, the key direction Shen Yu is observing is Agent. He believes that ecosystems like Ethereum may not primarily be for human use in the future, but for Agent use.

Below is the full interview, compiled by PANews:

The AI Era: Human Will Becomes More Important

Jin Ming: The last time you participated in an interview was ten years ago, in 2017. At that time, you had a very classic line: "With so much money, I don't know how to spend it all at once."

Fish: Now I know how to spend. In fact, fundamentally, I think human willpower is becoming increasingly important. After the AI era arrived, many things that used to require a lot of time and cost to accomplish can now be done quickly as long as you have an idea. This change is significant.

Yes. You see, fundamentally, human willpower is actually becoming more and more important. In the AI era, many tasks that used to require a lot of execution or were considered very difficult can now be done instantly as long as you have an idea. This change is quite significant. Things that we might have found unimaginable ten or twenty years ago can now be easily delivered. Things that we couldn't even imagine ten or twenty years ago can now be quickly delivered as long as there is an idea, and the backend execution cost has been greatly reduced, allowing many things to be delivered quickly.

Jinming: It's about going from an idea to the final implementation.

Fish: Yes. In the past, you had a seed, you had a dream, but it might have always just been a dream. Now, the backend cost has decreased rapidly, and with AI compressing and structuring a vast amount of human knowledge, you can inexpensively access these capabilities.

You have a seed at home, and it can quickly come to fruition. In the past, you had a seed, you had a dream, but it was just a dream. Now, the backend cost has decreased rapidly, and with AI compressing a lot of human knowledge, you can easily tap into this at a low cost. I feel like it has opened up a lot of possibilities. So I feel that AI has opened up a lot of possibilities.

From a Sense of Mission to Confusion, Builders are Also Seeking Answers

Jinming: Are you satisfied with your current state of life? Do you feel happy and fulfilled every day?

Fish: It's okay, but there is still some confusion. Unlike in the very beginning of entrepreneurship, at that time, the sense of mission was particularly strong. Now, I have entered a chaotic state: I see that AI has unfolded many possibilities, and I think this is the best era, but I have not seen a very clear path. Whether it's a sense of mission or a specific business path, I have not fully clarified it yet. So now, it's more about exploring and improving myself.

Jinming: How did you define your sense of mission when you first started your business?

Fish: When you see a window of opportunity, you will feel a very strong creative impulse. You will feel that if this thing is not done, you will definitely regret it for the rest of your life. It's like a force pushing you, and you can't escape it, so you come out and do it.

Jinming: The huge demand you saw back then was for mining?

Fish: Actually, it started as early as 2013, and the core issue was computing power. Mining initially started in the United States and later shifted to China. When China first started producing ASIC miners, the machines actually needed to connect to U.S. mining pools to mine. There were two issues: first, the network issue, as there were delays and packet loss in the international Internet, leading to poor mining efficiency; second, the settlement method of the entire mining industry at that time was not reasonable. So, what we did was to solve these two problems.

Essentially, when you see a market vacuum, a niche market, where some needs are not being fully met, and you happen to have the ability to meet them, you will have a very strong impulse to build this thing.

Jinming: After so long in the industry, what do you think is your mission now?

Fish: I still feel the need to create something. I have always defined myself as a Builder. Since the AI era, I have also created many small tools and dashboards, but I have not yet found that truly large and systematic thing, and I am still observing.

Actually, as you progress in entrepreneurship, being on the front line and doing a lot of things will lead to a lot of confusion and perplexity. So, you have to immerse yourself in a large amount of historical human knowledge: how have similar things happened in the past? How do philosophers think? These things will come back to influence you. At this moment, you can see many possible futures unfolding, but you have not yet found that specific path.

In Search of Life's Purpose

Jinming: When I shared yesterday, I talked about purpose awareness, which is the sense of life's purpose. I likened it to a scale.

Many people initially want to create big things, hoping to leave a legacy; on the other end of the scale is experience and happiness, and many young people feel that life is about pursuing happiness. Where do you currently stand on this scale?

Godfish: I don't have any particular desire to leave anything behind, nor do I seek a specific experiential feeling. I have used AI to deconstruct many things related to psychoanalysis, but fundamentally I am someone driven to create from within. I just want to build something. When something is created, I feel great. I hope to present something because I believe that, to some extent, living is about making the world a bit more diverse.

Jin Ming: This is actually quite leftist, very focused on legacy. In psychological research, there is a very interesting phenomenon where many people aspire to become a Builder. One potential psychological trait of a Builder is that they are prone to anxiety. Because your life purpose is constantly building. When you are not actively moving forward, not in the process of building, you tend to enter an anxious state. Have you experienced this state? How do you usually resolve it?

Godfish: Definitely to some extent, but now I can switch. I have had some ways to let myself relax since I was young, such as raising animals, engaging in hobbies. So basically, every week I enter this state. You have to allow yourself to relax. How do you deal with fear when diving?

Redefining Fear at the Limits

Jin Ming: When you hold your breath, your body continuously sends you signals. At this time, it is actually a confrontation between rationality and sensibility. I think the most straightforward analogy is that free diving is very much like a spiritual process. First, you have to enter the water with a state of 'knowing the outcome.' You have to keep telling yourself: you are safe.

The human brain is actually very smart. Humans are controlled by the autonomic nervous system. For example, it is very difficult to actually suffocate oneself on land by holding one's breath. When you reach the limit, the brain may experience a brief blackout, also known as a BO, entering a brief state of shock. After about ten seconds, the airway will reopen, and the person will naturally inhale.

But why might a person die underwater as a result? It's because when a person loses consciousness underwater and the airway reopens, the inhalation is not air but water. So ultimately, drowning may occur. This is why free diving training must always have a buddy, a training partner.

However, from another perspective, it is also a very good spiritual process. You will continuously give yourself complete positive psychological suggestions: what you are doing now is meditation, you are entering a state of flow; you are healthy, you are safe; your brain is very intelligent.

And no one could hold their breath to the limit right from the beginning. At first, after ten sessions, two months, three months, most people may only reach about 50% of their limit. As training progresses, they slowly approach 70%, 80%, and even 90%. Many times, what restricts newcomers from coming up to breathe is not their physical limit but rather their unfamiliarity with their body. As you become more and more familiar with your body, you will increasingly trust yourself and also get closer to your limit. So, the whole process is not as much of a struggle as imagined; many times, it is actually very peaceful.

Godfish: Doesn't this process help you overcome the fear of death? Or rather, does it make you face death more directly?

Jin Ming: That's a very good question. I think after long-term freediving or breath-holding training, my fear of death has indeed significantly decreased. I haven't really thought seriously about why. At the beginning, during the first breath-holding session or the first few training sessions, I still had a fear of death, but now it's completely gone. Even in daily life, when joking with my parents, I would say that I feel my life experience has been very fulfilling and abundant. Even if an accident happens tomorrow and I'm no longer here, I would still feel very happy. In the past, I used to think that of course, the longer I live, the better, and death is a very regrettable thing. But now I'm not so afraid of it anymore. Are you afraid?

Godfish: I think there is still some anxiety at some level. Or rather, observers might tell me, and my Agent partner would also tell me, that I actually have death anxiety.

AI Agent is Becoming the New Information Gateway

Jin Ming: What are your channels for collecting information every day now?

Godfish: It's almost all AI. I wake up, and AI tells me it has read everything from my yesterday. Now I have three AI Agents. One Agent is instrumental rationality; it tells you what to do. One is more feminine and softer, looking for what's deep inside you. And there's one that combines what you did yesterday, telling you what blind spots it noticed.

For example, it might tell you: In history, there was a good book where a certain chapter discussed an issue that ancient people also encountered, and it is very relevant to your current state. Do you want to spend 15 minutes reading that chapter? Then three things will pop up for you to directly go and see.

In addition, I have a note-taking system. They use an evolutionary approach to associate things I've been interested in with aspects of my life. In a sense, my attention is like a "God," determining which views or propositions can survive. Every day, AI generates a batch of new things through "crossbreeding," selects one, and tells me, "Here's an article you can read." So now I hardly read things directly. There are also daily digests and long articles selected by AI, which AI processes first before handing to me. I usually quickly condense them into a PowerPoint for review.

Building an Investment Framework Starting from DeFi

Kim Ming: However, this method is mostly dealing with existing information. Much of the information is happening in real-time, such as a sudden conflict a second ago, which may not be obtained as promptly through AI.

Godfish: I don't care. The most important information will find you on its own, you will definitely see it. I also don't do very short-term trading. I realized early on that I don't have a talent for it. Making some simple decisions is easier, but if it's something longer-term, I may be more suited for it.

I actually started investing after finishing playing around with DeFi. DeFi essentially helped me recap my investment history. We went from the "Underground Fed" all the way to how traditional finance was invented, witnessing the development of these two hundred years. Throughout this process, you will have many questions, and then you go back to study history and financial knowledge. It was also at this point that I started to seriously invest.

I was just lucky on day one to somehow get hold of some decent methodologies and walk a not-so-wrong path. But it was only after going through the whole DeFi wave that I began to build my own knowledge structure and investment framework. Before this, I actually didn't have a complete investment framework.

Kim Ming: So, in the long period of time you were mining, you didn't actually form an investment framework.

Godfish: At that time, I didn't even think I was investing. It was just a vague intuition: I should hold some Bitcoin, while also having a bit of portfolio management thinking.

I have an ISTJ personality, and a lot of things were abstracted from the practical process. I first establish some frameworks, then train my intuition; in the process, many new questions arise, leading to further abstraction into new frameworks. The investment framework slowly took shape that way.

From DeFi to RWA: Rethinking Financial Products Themselves

Jin Ming: Generally, very few people who enter DeFi end up forming an investment framework. This is because DeFi is often fundamentally about "yield farming," which is quite different from traditional investment logic.

Shen Yu: But what you need to consider is what functions these financial products themselves are actually providing, and how they are meeting market demands. Essentially, they are building a financial market from scratch on-chain, going from 0 to 1. I focus on this process, rather than engaging in arbitrage or mining within DeFi, which I view more as muscle memory and intuitive actions.

However, in this process, you accumulate a lot of experiences, which are very valuable. At the same time, you also gather a multitude of questions, which are equally valuable. Initially, you may not understand why these things are needed, but as you delve deeper, and then look back at history, many things start to connect.

Jin Ming: So, this current trend of Real World Assets (RWA) going on-chain, including the introduction of US stocks on-chain, essentially extends your understanding of financial products formed in DeFi to traditional finance.

Shen Yu: Yes, it's like having US stocks placed in front of you, forcing you to truly grasp the logic behind US stocks.

Jin Ming: But ten years ago when you were mining, you never thought about holding US stocks, did you?

Shen Yu: Even when someone asked me to borrow money to speculate on US stocks, I didn't quite understand it at the time. I can only say my luck was pretty good, and I happened to take a not-so-wrong path. I was actually quite clueless at that time and didn't really figure it out. Afterward, I had a ton of questions, and then with the emergence of AI, my learning speed suddenly increased, allowing me to quickly skim through numerous books and materials, and then understand why these things happened.

Good Assets Don't Need Constantly Seeking New Narratives

Jin Ming: You've been involved with Bitcoin for over a decade now. Have your views on BTC changed at all?

Shen Yu: No change, it's still digital gold. In this world, Bitcoin is possibly the only asset you can hold without needing an intermediary. Almost all other assets have one layer, two layers, or even three layers of intermediaries.

Jin Ming: We currently have quite a few pessimistic members in our group as well.

Whale: The value of BTC truly shines in extreme circumstances. So, it's normal for everyone to not care about it when the market is booming.

Jinming: Do you agree with the view that BTC has significantly enhanced individual sovereignty under classical liberalist ideology?

Whale: At the core of individual sovereignty is the ability to control assets. AI has brought about enhanced capabilities, and BTC is a key asset in the way sovereign individuals manage their assets. Both of these things are very important.

Jinming: I have some friends who were very early believers in BTC and had strong faith. But after this cycle, many people seem to struggle to see a new narrative.

Whale: A good asset doesn't need a narrative, and the longer it lasts, the more it can prove certain things.

Jinming: I think in this Web 3 cycle, there are two crucial narratives. One is the full asset arbitrage done by Ethena, and the other is RWA on-chain. However, both of these are still in their early stages and haven't truly matured yet.

Instead, I feel that the killer consumer-facing applications of Web3 have not emerged yet. I'm not talking about products used by investors and traders today, but products that ordinary consumers can use like they use WeChat, truly changing people's way of life. I think that hasn't happened yet.

Whale: I've long held the view that ecosystems like Ethereum may not be meant for human use in the future, but rather for Agents. It might ultimately be a network where humans are not necessarily the most suitable end users. When we use on-chain products now, the requirements for user expertise and security awareness are often too high. If humans were to directly become end users, the barrier would still be quite high. But if Agents become the intermediate layer, it might be a better way of presentation.

Jinming: If in the future, Agents are primarily running on Ethereum, Solana, etc., then the entire Agent ecosystem is rapidly evolving. How do you see the future of these Ethereum, Solana, and other ecosystems?

Whale: Right now I am observing a key point: whether Agent can achieve widespread adoption within the Ethereum ecosystem. If this point indeed arrives, it may be a turning point.

Jin Ming: I think Web 3 actually has a value that has been greatly underestimated. From 1.0, 2.0 to 3.0, "readable, writable, ownable," fundamentally may change the way societal wealth is distributed. If we place finance in this framework, my ideal Web 3 finance is actually like this: Today, when a Chinese individual participates in A-shares and conducts trades through trading software, a significant portion of the transaction fees generated ultimately belong to platforms like East Money and Tencent Finance, rather than the participants themselves.

However, one of the core values of Web 3 is that participants can simultaneously be owners of the benefits. For example, when you participate in trading on Binance or Hyperliquid, the platform gains transaction fees from your trades, and as an ecosystem participant, you may also share in the value created by the platform's growth through tokens, buybacks, and other means. You are both a participant and a shareholder. In the Web 1.0 and Web 2.0 eras, you were more just a participant; in the Web 3 era, you may possibly be both a participant and a shareholder. I think this is actually one of the core values of Web 3, and it shouldn't only happen on-chain.

In theory, in the future, in all money-related areas worldwide, this kind of model could emerge: you are both a participant, receive rewards, and also enjoy the dividends of the ecosystem's development. However, currently, this mechanism has not been widely applied outside of the Web 3 domain.

Whale: I think it will happen in the future. For example, in the AI era, data itself may give rise to similar mechanisms. The possibility of technological diffusion has already been opened up. When it can be widely adopted, it may still need to solve many problems and will take time. But the potential is there. We are already seeing successful demos in some edge cases, but it has not yet formed into widespread applications.

Gold or BTC?

Jin Ming: How do you view gold?

Whale: I don't pay much attention to these things. Bitcoin is the superior form of gold.

Jin Ming: I think the commonality between the two is consensus, but the groups forming that consensus are different. Bitcoin has formed a portion of its consensus at the individual sovereignty level, while gold has formed a stronger consensus at the national sovereignty level, especially at the central bank level. Global central banks are still continuously buying gold.

Whale: Essentially, it can be divided into two camps. One camp is the "digital currency + AI" represented by Bitcoin, and the other camp is the traditional "gold + industrial manufacturing power." If we were to view it on a spectrum, we might lean a bit more to the left.

Jinming: Do you remember James Tobin's Nobel Prize-related theory? From this perspective, we can both buy Bitcoin and buy gold. Because the two are positively correlated in some cycles, but in the past year, there has even been a certain degree of negative correlation. If you want to enjoy the so-called "free lunch" of the financial markets and achieve a well-diversified portfolio, you should hold more assets that are low or even negatively correlated. What do you think?

Whale: I don't think there are truly negatively correlated assets. While a large number of assets are indeed diversified under normal circumstances and have relatively low correlation, they all have a few common core constraints. When those core market variables undergo systemic changes and the entire market enters an extreme situation, almost all assets will behave similarly.

Jinming: But there are also counterexamples. For example, oil and many credit-related assets are sometimes inversely correlated. US Treasuries also often exhibit an inverse relationship with credit assets.

Whale: There are instances of both US Treasuries and stocks being hit simultaneously. So I believe what truly needs to be resisted are the most extreme situations. Many times when you think two assets are negatively correlated, in the most extreme circumstances, they may not actually protect you. That's why I'm not a typical advocate for diversification, but more inclined towards concentration. Since you can't really understand so many things, and human energy is limited. If the underlying logic isn't fully understood, I would rather concentrate my assets on a few things that I truly comprehend.

Ultimately, investment is a combination of character, cognition, and position management

Jinming: I find this point very interesting. I believe that there are some things that you don't need to fully comprehend. For example, gold, even if you don't study it, has already formed a long-term consensus in many sovereign central banks. Since this consensus exists, by holding it long term, you can also consider it as part of a well-diversified portfolio.

Whale: But when it drops, it will affect your mindset. So don't let these things affect your mindset, the simplest way is just not to hold it. When Bitcoin drops, you won't panic; you won't experience too much emotional fluctuation. But the premise is that you must have faith. And to truly have this faith, you have to do a lot of groundwork.

Jin Ming: For the average person, the bigger barrier may still be that most people are not professional investors. Position management, drawdown control, including mindset management, they find it difficult to truly remain calm.

Shen Yu: Is this also related to training? For sports like free diving, is it mostly trained, or is it related to a person's innate personality?

Jin Ming: I think it may be both. I believe that sports may become a necessity for many people in the future. Many people will pay more and more attention to health, and then truly focus on a certain sport, gradually becoming a kind of "athlete" in a sense. It will bring a sense of achievement and also make you happier.

When these things come together, it is actually a fairly complete trading lifestyle. In addition to your own lifestyle, in the future, the Bitcoin drawdown may actually be a better accumulation opportunity for Type-A investors. For example, when Bitcoin is at $120,000, you may find it difficult to buy, and I myself would not be particularly inclined to accumulate above $100,000. Because I feel it has not given me an opportunity. If it falls below $90,000, I would see it as an opportunity. Buy at $90,000, $80,000, $70,000, $60,000, buy slowly. Because I still have a long-term bullish view.

Is AI a Cycle or the New "Hydroelectricity" of the Era?

Jin Ming: From the current logic, I think calling AI a pure cyclical stock is inaccurate. I believe that AI will definitely become the most important productivity of the next era, replacing a large part of what runs the world today. This change may be even bigger than the Industrial Revolution. If this assumption holds true, then AI is not a simple cycle, but the new "water, electricity, coal" of the era. Of course, if this assumption does not hold, then you can completely treat it as a cycle. The key lies in your judgment of this assumption itself.

Shen Yu: But if you look at history, many things are actually isomorphic. During the 2000 Internet bubble, everyone also believed that the Internet was the future. At that time, network infrastructure was key, and everyone went to buy Cisco. As a result, Cisco later experienced a long period of valuation digestion. Could a similar situation occur?

Jin Ming: All I can say is that everything has a probability. But I believe that, if the AI era truly arrives in the future, the demand for storage will be enormous. Currently, we mainly have conversational AI, plus a bit of programmed AI. But the truly massive storage demand in the future may come from embodied intelligence, that is, real robots. Today, there are no truly embodied intelligent robots in our homes, and robots in work scenarios are still mainly concentrated in a few factories. A large number of white-collar office scenarios have not been truly replaced yet.

Furthermore, the future human brain may also require more external storage. For example, a person's brain may have multiple backups, or may have additional "external brain" through brain-machine interfaces. These demands have not truly materialized today. However, if the AI era does arrive, the demand space will be very significant. So the key point actually returns to an assumption: Do you believe that the AI era will definitely come? I believe it will come. And the idea of robots is no longer entirely a wild assumption. Looking down the chain of human technological development today, we can already see the possibility of massive production.

How to Screen for Core Assets?

Gene Fish: This once again comes back to the trading lifestyle. Your personality preferences will influence what investment philosophy and framework you choose; ultimately affecting your position management and mindset management.

Kim Ming: Indeed, everyone is quite different. But those who truly do well are definitely able to develop a set of core things that belong to them, suitable for them. Including what you just mentioned as T 0 level assets, its definition is actually not the same. In my framework, what you consider a T 0 level asset may only be considered T 2 or even T 3, because it may still be a very cutting-edge thing.

Gene Fish: Our approach is roughly three-layered. The first layer, we may first notice an anomaly: this company seems a bit peculiar. We won't start with a heavy position, maybe buying no more than 2%, or even usually just a few tenths of a percent, as an observation position. Then we spend time and effort to understand it. If we think its logic is correct, we may then upgrade again, from tenths of a percent, to single-digit percentage asset allocation, but generally not exceeding 10%.

From around 10% further to around 20% as core assets, actually requires a leap of "faith." Because once you truly enter the core position, it relies not only on fundamentals and logical deduction, but also requires something akin to faith. You need to see a sufficiently large vision, able to support a huge TAM (Total Addressable Market), while also having very strong business logic, and a real inflection point.

So in conclusion, our current core framework is more about: Monopoly + Growth. For the most core asset, its TAM must be particularly large, needing a sufficiently grand vision to pull it. Otherwise, it cannot be placed in the most core asset allocation.

Jinming: Based on your framework, what do you currently consider the most core asset?

Godfish: Currently, the main assets we have included are Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Tesla. SpaceX is still in the timing and observation stage and has not been upgraded yet. Ethereum is still in there for now, but we have also been discussing recently whether to move Ethereum down from this tier.

Jinming: Is there also an identity issue here? I remember a year ago, when you cleared out Ethereum, I said in the group chat that I "slept better," and you also mentioned sleeping better back then, right?

Godfish: Yes, because we stopped mining DeFi. But the core logic we are currently seeing is that Agent may operate on Ethereum in the future. Of course, this logic has not been disproven yet.

Jinming: But why can't Agent run on Base? Why can't it run on Solana?

Godfish: It can run on both. But Ethereum's ecosystem may be a better match. It has a lot of decentralized infrastructure at the base layer. Although these things may not have been truly implemented in the past period, the foundation is also trying to move in this direction. For example, creating a registry and ecosystem infrastructure around Agent. Although nothing substantial has been achieved at the moment, some progress has been made, giving the market a glimmer of hope.

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